From Baptist Pastor to FBI SWAT Operator | Inside Counterterrorism, Interrogations & High-Risk Tactics
What does it take to go from preaching sermons to leading high-risk FBI tactical operations?
In this powerful episode of Spirits and Stories, Donald Dunn sits down with Eric Robinson — former FBI Special Agent, 15-year SWAT operator, and national security investigator — to unpack what really happens behind the scenes in counterterrorism, civil rights investigations, tactical entries, and high-stakes interrogations.
Eric shares:
• His unexpected transition from Baptist pastor to FBI agent
• How FBI investigations actually work behind the curtain
• The truth about domestic vs. international terrorism threats
• What SWAT operations look like in real life (not Hollywood)
• The psychology behind interrogating violent offenders
• Why rapport-building beats torture every time
• The emotional toll of crimes against children cases
• The evolution of surround-and-call-out tactical methods
• The mindset required to operate in high-risk environments
We also dive into the story behind his upcoming book, Irreverent (working title: Preacher to Breacher) — a raw, honest look at faith, federal law enforcement, leadership, and identity.
If you’re interested in the FBI, SWAT tactics, counterterrorism, law enforcement leadership, military transition, or the psychology of interrogation, this episode will challenge what you think you know.
🎙 Hosted by Donald Dunn
📚 Book release coming Fall
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Transcript
Welcome to Spirits and Stories, a place where we slow things down and talk about the moments that shaped us.
Speaker A:The stories behind the scars, the victories, the lessons.
Speaker A:Every guest brings a journey, so settle in.
Speaker A:This one's meant to be felt.
Speaker B:Hey, welcome everybody to Spirits and Stories.
Speaker B:I'm your host, Donald Dunn.
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker B:Today's guest is Eric Robinson, a former FBI agent and 15 year SWAT operator with deep experience in national security, human intelligence and major criminal investigations.
Speaker B:During his career, he worked cases that earned the Attorney General's award and trained others as tactical and firearms instructors.
Speaker B:Eric brings a rare inside perspective on how FBI investigations actually work, how law enforcement properly engages high risk situations, and the human and even spiritual side of serving in some of the most intense roles in America.
Speaker B:This is going to be an eye opening conversation.
Speaker B:Welcome to the show, Eric.
Speaker A:Thanks a lot, Donald.
Speaker A:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:Hey, absolutely.
Speaker B:You know, I'm kind of looking forward to this because the way we did things in the military is different than the way we do things in the United States.
Speaker B:And so as far as a operator level type scenario, I think we'll get into some good conversations here.
Speaker A:I'm glad to.
Speaker A:It'll take me back.
Speaker A:I'm just a month removed from working in the FBI, but I still got, still got that twitch and the itch to get back and do things.
Speaker B:All right, absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, let's, let's start with a little bit of background.
Speaker B:What brought you to wanting to go into law enforcement and then later into the FBI?
Speaker A:Well, I was, before I got into the FBI, a Baptist pastor.
Speaker A:And I had spent about a dozen years in Christian ministry.
Speaker A:The problem with that for me was I had a difficult time getting over the stress of work.
Speaker A:So better men have handled this better than I have.
Speaker A:But when someone would come to me from the congregation and say, I'm going through this difficulty, whether it's marital, family, financial, I couldn't let go of that.
Speaker A:And so every day for two years, and I don't exaggerate, it was every day I had stress related headaches until I told my wife, I've got to do something different.
Speaker A:So I applied for two jobs at that time.
Speaker A:One I was overqualified for and one I was under qualified for.
Speaker A:And I got this.
Speaker A:And from there, 24 years in the FBI, it didn't take long for me to feel like this really is a more comfortable fit for my life.
Speaker A:Working in ministry was very rewarding in many ways.
Speaker A:But also on top of the physical drain, it was difficult because I felt like I couldn't be authentic.
Speaker A:I Had to be perfect.
Speaker A:I had to wear a mask.
Speaker A:I had to be the pastor who always said the right thing.
Speaker A:And especially in the Baptist church where you don't go to movies, you don't play cards, you don't swear.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It was hard to be somebody I wasn't.
Speaker A:Wasn't really right.
Speaker B:And, you know, I never thought about it that way.
Speaker B:But you are right.
Speaker B:You know, being a pastor of a church is.
Speaker B:Is definitely putting you in the front view of everybody, and everybody's watching.
Speaker B:You know, the one thing you said that, that I find odd was, you know, the stresses that you were having from dealing with individual problems through your congregation.
Speaker B:Did that not cross over when you were dealing with some of the.
Speaker B:The investigations and dealing with people and their problems in this industry?
Speaker A:No, because I don't care.
Speaker A:Because I. I would have a case where I was looking to indict 10 people, and the prosecutor would say, well, we' indict these six.
Speaker A:And I, you know, I would get upset about it or I'd protest, but ultimately it didn't matter.
Speaker A:It didn't matter in the same way that someone I care about comes to me and says, I think my wife is cheating on me, and I don't know what to do.
Speaker A:And he's crying that that matters.
Speaker A:Yeah, this bad guy who's selling drugs, and he'll get it.
Speaker A:Justice will catch up to him some way.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so I just let it go.
Speaker A:But the part of it, too, was just the authenticity of, you know, having to live in this, in this perfect way where I couldn't just cut loose, be myself.
Speaker A:And emblematic of that was the first sermon I ever had to preach.
Speaker A:So going through ministry and you take those steps, you're a youth pastor, you do other things.
Speaker A:I was associate pastor at a Baptist church, and the pastor would go through book, chapter by chapter through the Bible, and he says, hey, I'm going to be out in a few weeks.
Speaker A:You know, I want you to preach for me.
Speaker A:And it happened to be Exodus, chapter 17.
Speaker A:And I know, Donald, you certainly have the Bible memorized, so you know exactly what that's about.
Speaker A:But for your listeners, that chapter was about God giving the rite of circumcision to Moses.
Speaker A:So the first sermon I ever preached was on was on circumcision.
Speaker A:And so I checked with my wife and I said, hey, I'm thinking of telling a joke to start off.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker A:I'm thinking of telling them I'm preaching about circumcision.
Speaker A:The sermon is kind of long So I just cut a little bit off the end.
Speaker A:And she says, I don't think that's a good idea.
Speaker A:And she was.
Speaker A:She was right.
Speaker A:Not a good idea.
Speaker A:That's a true story.
Speaker A:That's a true story.
Speaker B:You know, that's.
Speaker B:That's that dark sense of humor that comes from the law enforcement, the military side, you know?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It fits better in that context.
Speaker A:So here I am.
Speaker A:This is like, if I can't tell dick jokes in church, am I really free to be myself?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, I. I agree.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And there's no way I could do it either.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So I. I am relating with you.
Speaker B:And, you know, the other.
Speaker B:The other thing, too.
Speaker B:I had a.
Speaker B:A soldier, and.
Speaker B:And the stories that he could tell, you know, he.
Speaker B:He worked as a emt.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:In the Twin Cities up there.
Speaker B:So he dealt with, you know, the area that he was in.
Speaker B:They always had to wear, you know, bulletproof vests and everything as an emt.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And he would tell me these stories about how many times he would get to a scene before the law enforcement got there, and he would literally have to sit in his.
Speaker B:His ambulance and watch people bleed out because there was gang members of opposite sides on both sides of.
Speaker B:Of the area.
Speaker B:And if you got out and helped one side, the other side would shoot at you for taking sides.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And the one thing he said.
Speaker B:I said, man, does that ever bother you?
Speaker B:You know, and he said, well, I just learned to accept that this isn't my emergency, this is theirs, you know, and you just go through those emotions.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I imagine your buddy is an emt, so that's something that's.
Speaker A:Goes on with FBI agents.
Speaker A:So if we have downtime after an op, or we've cleared a house, or you're waiting on a dope dealer to show up, people start telling stories.
Speaker A:So, you know, especially with swat, we'd be sitting in the back of an armored Bearcat, and people start sharing stories.
Speaker A:And I'm sure, you know, if you're an emt, you've got stories too.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But I can step back, and I think I haven't lost that awe and amazement of I got to be in the FBI.
Speaker A:So I'd step back, and I think that's an amazing story.
Speaker A:And so as I was getting near retirement, my wife prompted me.
Speaker A:She works in promoting and publishing books, and she said, you should write a book.
Speaker A:So I sat down and I started putting those stories on the computer, and things flowed.
Speaker A:And I realized there are so many remarkable things that I either did or got to be a part of.
Speaker A:And I don't mean that boastfully.
Speaker A:I mean that, wow, that was crazy.
Speaker A:And I was there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and.
Speaker B:And I think that's the one thing that.
Speaker B:That in those industries you've got to be able to do is.
Speaker B:Is focus in the moment and.
Speaker B:And then go back and.
Speaker B:And relook at it later from a different perspective.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And yeah, I. I would agree with you.
Speaker B:The stuff that you guys do is.
Speaker B:Is nothing short of.
Speaker B:Of remarkable.
Speaker B:And I think us military guys kind of get that same feeling.
Speaker B:I think, you know, that's one of the things you said earlier that, you know, you still have that itch, and I think a lot of other soldiers have that same itch to go back and redeploy and go back to combat because it becomes the norm.
Speaker A:Well, for me, I've been doubly blessed because I always tell my kids, if you can have a job where.
Speaker A:Where you earn an income for your family, that's noble.
Speaker A:If your job happens to bring good to society as well, you're.
Speaker A:It's doubly noble.
Speaker A:And with both careers, I felt like I had that.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, people in the military want to go back because they have a purpose.
Speaker A:They were doing something that they knew was good, and it was serving a role in society.
Speaker A:And it's hard being away from that now after years of being that person in the FBI.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I. I completely get it.
Speaker B:I can relate.
Speaker B:You know, I still think back when I was in and.
Speaker B:And kind of, you know, wish I wouldn't have got out when I did.
Speaker B:You know, I did.
Speaker B:I did 20 years, but, you know, I think I got out because I was burned out and.
Speaker B:And not necessarily burned out from the military, just the.
Speaker B:The constant deployments and.
Speaker B:And so forth and needed some time with the family and that stuff.
Speaker B:And I should have looked at other opportunities in the military because I don't think I was truly ready to get out.
Speaker B:And so that's one thing I want to dive into, that transition that you made.
Speaker B:So you went from standing in front of your congregation and preaching.
Speaker B:What was it like when you made that transition?
Speaker B:And your first early stages of being in the FBI, that had.
Speaker B:That had to be completely different.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A: So Easter of: Speaker A:I preached at my church.
Speaker A:The next Sunday I was in Quantico, Virginia, and then the Sunday after that, I preached in the academy because they didn't have a chaplain and they knew what I did, so.
Speaker A:So I was easing into it, I was.
Speaker A:This is like, we barely had emails at this time.
Speaker A:So I'm telling the wife, hey, send me one of my sermons.
Speaker A:I gotta have something together.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But I met such a diverse group of people.
Speaker A:There were a few who had been support staff in the FBI, and so that transition was easy.
Speaker A:There were its folks, There was a state senator, there was a doctor, obviously cops and military, but there's a wide group of people.
Speaker A:And so I, I had shot a gun once before that, and that showed as I was skipping rounds off the concrete.
Speaker A:But the instruction is top notch at Quantico.
Speaker A:And so, you know, slowly I'm getting better and learning how to shoot, having comfort with it.
Speaker A:For me, it just.
Speaker A:You're getting a fire hose of.
Speaker A:This is the FBI now.
Speaker A:There's investigations you're doing.
Speaker A:Like, this is my part of it, but I, I mean, there's aspects of the FBI I still don't know about as far as what goes on at headquarters and who people are.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It felt pretty natural for me going in that this is something I feel like I can do.
Speaker A:And then once, you know, once you look behind the curtain and you go, oh, you're just a guy too.
Speaker A:You're not, you know, you're nothing special.
Speaker A:You're smart guy who's a decent person.
Speaker A:I think I can fit in here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think, you know, that, that original sermon that you were going to give, I think that would have been perfect for your opening sermon with the FBI.
Speaker B:They would have got it right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We get a lot of dark humor that goes on in the FBI and it's.
Speaker A:I'm just like military.
Speaker A:That's just how you cope with what's going on.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of people don't understand that the, the job entails that you're going to see a lot of bad.
Speaker B:It's just, that's the nature of the job, you know, And I don't mean necessarily dealing with the bad guys.
Speaker B:I'm talking about more about the, the victim sides of this that you're going to, you know, deal with.
Speaker B:And, and if you don't have an escape, you know, I'm sure a lot of FBI agents don't want to go home and sit at the dinner table and tell their, their wife and kids about what's going on when they're dealing with some, some stressful moments.
Speaker B:And it was the same in the military.
Speaker B:So those jokes is a good escape.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's one thing to unwind at home.
Speaker A:It's another thing with the person who knows exactly.
Speaker A:Because they experience it too.
Speaker A:How to banter and release that.
Speaker A:I worked crimes against children for a number of years, and so you see some terrible stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you deal with it.
Speaker A:And I don't work that anymore, but when I would go into the task force office, they have inappropriate things up because that's, that's how you deal with it.
Speaker A:Like you're, you're, you're looking at people who are offending children.
Speaker A:You're trying to save teenage prostitutes who've gone down a terrible path.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and so you, you have to deal with, hey, this is my life now.
Speaker A:So it's like in your college dorm.
Speaker A:Well, I'm going to decorate the dorm I want because this is just my dorm.
Speaker A:And so they have to put up the jokes and the memes and the silly things that bad guys have said online.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I, I get it.
Speaker B:And, and I, and I think a lot of other people, you know, if they were going through it, they would understand it as well.
Speaker B:You know, it's not a, it's not a, a good or bad thing.
Speaker B:It's a coping mechanism, just like you said.
Speaker B:So, so you worked in national security without sharing anything sensitive.
Speaker B:What kinds of, of threats does the public not fully understand?
Speaker B:What are some of those roles that you've had to take on that, that people don't necessarily see in the headlines and, and would fully understand?
Speaker A:Well, the threat.
Speaker A:Well, so when I, I worked 15 years doing criminal investigations and then moved into national security, which is counterterrorism.
Speaker A:And so when I got in, we were still working the tail end of international terrorism.
Speaker A:And these were, these were terrorist funding.
Speaker A:It wasn't that this guy in our area was a terrorist.
Speaker A:It's that this guy was sending money to maybe Hezbollah or maybe aqap.
Speaker A:And so we got to find out.
Speaker A:And those investigations were just carried along for years, going nowhere.
Speaker A:I had some of my own.
Speaker A:And then we got into, oh, now we've got the rise of domestic terrorists.
Speaker A:We've got people who are threatening individuals within the United States who are white, like me.
Speaker A:And now we're at a place where I had been reminding my supervisors, we can't get too focused here and then forget, we need to have a developed informant base on international terrorism and keep the ears in those places as well.
Speaker A:So what the public, they may know, they may not know is we haven't.
Speaker A:The threat to society is not, is no longer a mass event like 9, 11.
Speaker A:That was that one thing ever since, it has been an individual who is motivated online and carries out an attack on his own gets the ideology, comes to a breaking point and says, now, now I'm going to go.
Speaker A:So they get the ideology.
Speaker A:It's referred to as stochastic terrorism.
Speaker A:There is a priming from things they read, motivational videos, sermons.
Speaker A:And it's meant to bring someone to that breaking point, to say someone needs to do something.
Speaker A:That'll be me.
Speaker A:And what, what we've seen is there's a case, I was working with a buddy, and to my knowledge, he still has it going on.
Speaker A:A young man who was watching many, many motivational videos for isis.
Speaker A:And the problem was, on top of that, this Muslim man was also, they knew into child pornography.
Speaker A:The problem with that is not just, oh, it's child pornography too.
Speaker A:The problem with that is he was disgusted with himself and he knew that was sinful.
Speaker A:And the only way to expiate your sins that are so egregious in one fell swoop is to kill as many people for Allah as you can.
Speaker A:And that was always the concern that much like the nice attack years ago where a man drove a truck through a crowd.
Speaker A:Remember that was done the first that they found his ex wife and she said, he eats bacon.
Speaker A:He's not a following Muslim.
Speaker A:Well, he came to a point where he, he believed he had to turn away from his sinful life.
Speaker A:And there's no way.
Speaker A:There's so many sins he had committed.
Speaker A:The only way to cleanse himself was to kill as he was pushed to this, as many infidels as possible.
Speaker A:So we had that in the Cleveland area where we would infiltrate white supremacist groups.
Speaker A:And these groups would always be talking about the violence they want to bring, but nobody would do anything.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And then we had one young man named Eamon Penny who was part of one of these groups, but he struck out on his own, not with the group, because he got drunk and he wanted to protect the children from a bad church.
Speaker A:And he tried to fire a bomb at church and he was unsuccessful.
Speaker A:But he still got 20 years in prison for that.
Speaker A:So we watch for those groups and then what I have the informants do is which is the one, as best as you can see, that's the one who might crack.
Speaker A:That's the one who will do something we're afraid of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and a lot about what you're describing really does start to kind of sound like what we see in today, you know, between the few attempts, that's Been on President Trump's life, the school shootings, those types of things.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're people that get, I don't know, influenced by things that they're reading, seeing, believing online and.
Speaker B:And get to the point where they finally act on.
Speaker B:On those beliefs.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I didn't realize, you know, how in depth that goes and.
Speaker B:And it does kind of make sense, I guess, with, you know, how.
Speaker B:How strict after 9, 11 we got with Homeland Security and stuff, that it would protect us from those big moments.
Speaker B:But when you're dealing with.
Speaker B:I mean, we're probably talking about tens of thousands of groups, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if.
Speaker A:And you can go online and you can infiltrate these private groups, the signal chats or what they might have, and there will always be guys on there.
Speaker A:And my informants would come to me and say, hey, I got this guy saying this.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, well, you know, keep it in mind.
Speaker A:But you know how this goes.
Speaker A:The guy says, hey, we should kill all these people.
Speaker A:And so we watch him for a while, and then now he doesn't do anything.
Speaker A:So there's only so many eyes and ears and people are going to slip through.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I want to move into some of the awards that you won.
Speaker B:2.
Speaker B:Two of your cases won the Attorney General's award.
Speaker A:Oh, please, Donald.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker B:What made those.
Speaker B:Those cases stand out?
Speaker B:What was.
Speaker B:What were they about if you.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:One stood out because it was.
Speaker A:It was a significant civil rights case in Chicago.
Speaker A:I worked in Chicago for eight years, and a buddy had opened an investigation on Chicago Police Commander John Burge.
Speaker A:So in the 70s and 80s, John Burge had a group of detectives with him, and they called themselves the A Team, and they would kick asses, and they tortured subjects for confessions.
Speaker A:I would say almost, but likely exclusively black men.
Speaker A:The issue with that was they were all guilty.
Speaker A:They just tortured them for the confessions to make this quicker and cleaner.
Speaker A:So we went through.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This is kind of an Elliot Ness version.
Speaker A:So this was in the 70s and 80s.
Speaker A:So the civil rights.
Speaker A:The statute of limits had passed.
Speaker A:The FBI had done nothing about it at the time.
Speaker A:The Chicago Police Department had done nothing about it at the time.
Speaker A:And now we had a federal civil suit against Burge, suing him for having tortured a victim.
Speaker A:So a victim brought a case, and under oath, John Bird said, I know nothing about any torture.
Speaker A:And so rather than actually having that.
Speaker A:A case on him, now we had perjury and obstruction of justice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it was long after the fact.
Speaker A:It was justice delayed.
Speaker A:But now, we were bumping up against the statute of limitations for those charges of five years.
Speaker A:So there was nothing fancy about it because we couldn't get phone records.
Speaker A:They were long gone.
Speaker A:We're asking people to remember events from 20, 25 years ago.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we had talked to a number of the victims, and the victims were all rapists and murderers and arsonists.
Speaker A:They were actual bad people.
Speaker A:And I would talk to this victim, and I remember one telling me how he was handcuffed behind his back, and then one of the cops stood on the bumper of the vehicle and just started lifting up on his arms, and he said he thought his arms were going to tear out of their sockets.
Speaker A:And he finally confessed.
Speaker A:And very honestly, I asked him, he said, I spent 20 years in prison.
Speaker A:I missed my mother's funeral because I was locked up.
Speaker A:And I asked him, did you confess to something?
Speaker A:Like, did they make you confess to something you didn't do?
Speaker A:And he said, no, but I would never have confessed.
Speaker A:So, you know, I didn't.
Speaker A:I didn't feel sorry for them because they're terrible people, but police can't do that.
Speaker A:And so we were bringing some justice more to the city than to the individuals, so that we.
Speaker A:We got burge.
Speaker A:And then my buddy and I started moving on to the next one in line, and we were told, ah, that's enough.
Speaker A:You know, you guys did something good.
Speaker A:Just let it go.
Speaker A:So that was frustrating.
Speaker A:Just wanted to make a statement and then go back to ignoring civil rights violations.
Speaker B:You know, I had John Kiriakou on.
Speaker B:On the show, and, you know, I think the CIA should have reviewed your.
Speaker B:That case that you had, you know, and.
Speaker B:And learned that torture does not always end well, you know, in your situation.
Speaker B:Yes, the people were guilty and.
Speaker B:And, you know, they were just getting the confessions faster.
Speaker B:However, you know, in a larger term, when you start using that method, you're going to start picking up a lot more innocent people that are just going to confess because they want the pain to stop.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And that was one of the problems that the CIA had with what they.
Speaker B:With the information they were getting is because it wasn't always reliable information.
Speaker B:It was prisoners that just wanted the pain to stop.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of people don't realize that there is better ways.
Speaker B:Maybe not faster, but better.
Speaker A:Yeah, you think the best word you have is just unreliable.
Speaker A:So you'll get a statement, but you don't know the veracity of it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we have what's called a fly team with the FBI, and so that group is trained on proper interrogation, which mainly has to do with building rapport and finding commonality with somebody else.
Speaker A:So I, even if I'm talking, and this is how I would carry out my post arrest interrogations, I'm talking to a pedophile who had just, you know, had been raping children.
Speaker A:And I have to find something to connect with him about.
Speaker A:And even if it's as simple as we're both men, or maybe it's baseball, you know, it's.
Speaker A:I have to see him not as a monster.
Speaker A:And so many people would say, I don't know how you can talk to these guys because I just want to put a bullet in their head.
Speaker A:And I think maybe you would.
Speaker A:But like, you just go in there and you do your job.
Speaker A:And my job is to treat you with kindness, show you humanity.
Speaker A:And it's manipulative because I'm trying to get you to do something that's not in your best interest.
Speaker A:But I need to see justice come about.
Speaker A:And going around and yelling at people or punching them in cuffs or putting a bullet in their head doesn't, doesn't bring it about.
Speaker A:So we'll do it the right way and, and we'll get good results.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and not to mention the damage that it does when it goes to that next level.
Speaker B:You know, once you've got your confidence, confession and everything else and the attorneys now get involved and, and start the prosecution part of it, you know, now everything that you've done at that point becomes under a magnifying glass and you know, a whole case can be ruined over something small because you let personal emotions get involved.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and I found it fairly simple for me to, to just take people as they are.
Speaker A:And I think I transferred some of that ministry mindset into how I worked with victims, with witnesses, with informants, with the bad guys.
Speaker A:I had informants who drive me crazy.
Speaker A:And then I'd realize, well, these guys don't have to work for me.
Speaker A:They're not getting paid that much and they're sticking their necks out for America.
Speaker A:You know what, maybe I better be patient with them.
Speaker A:Maybe I better treat them well and, you know, similar with the bad guys.
Speaker A:Yeah, you want to slug them, but you broke the law.
Speaker A:We're going to deal with you breaking the law.
Speaker A:If you're a horrible human being on top of that, we'll let other people deal with that.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, at the end of the day, you know, that's something for, for God to sort out.
Speaker B:You know, it's not our job to judge, you know, especially at your level.
Speaker B:It's not, you're not the judge and the prosecutor.
Speaker B:Your job is to get the facts and, and put the right person in front of that judge and let the attorneys deal with it from there.
Speaker B:And you have to have an open mind to that.
Speaker B:And if you're not making those connections, then absolutely, it's, you're not going to get what you want and it's going to become a lot more difficult.
Speaker B:And again, the information, information can be tainted and, and you not get what you're looking for.
Speaker B:So I get it.
Speaker B:I do agree with some other people as well.
Speaker B:It would be hard.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, this is not going to be something that just happens overnight.
Speaker B:I think you're going to have to work at it and, and learn the tactics.
Speaker A:But yeah, sure, I found what we did successful.
Speaker A:I get if some people, it's more not being able to stomach what leads up to it and you know, reviewing evidence and seeing bad stuff, that, that's a little harder.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:No, and I was referring to as far as, you know, keeping your, your emotions out and when you're dealing with a pedophile, you know, especially if you have kids, that's the part that you have to learn to do.
Speaker B:I don't know how, how quick it becomes trainable, you know, to, to do,
Speaker A:but you have to walk a line because you can't, you can't let it not affect you at all because now you're not human.
Speaker A:Like, I, I can't close off my emotions and then, and oh.
Speaker A:But then when I come home, I'll open it up and be, you know, sweet with the kids.
Speaker A:But it also can't make you just curl up in a ball and say, I can't take this.
Speaker A:The world is such a terrible place.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's, it's a, it's a line to walk where you go, this is horrible.
Speaker A:This is horrible.
Speaker A:And here we go.
Speaker A:I'm doing my job.
Speaker B:Yeah, I guess it kind of goes back to like what my buddy said.
Speaker B:It's not my emergency.
Speaker B:You know, I'm just here to help you with it and let's get through it.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I get it.
Speaker B:Let's talk a little bit about the tactical operations in swat.
Speaker B:So walk us through how law enforcement properly engages a high risk subject.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Yes, I enjoy, I used to enjoy so much teaching tactics.
Speaker A:So with swat.
Speaker A:SWAT is an ancillary job in the FBI.
Speaker A:So I was a field agent the entire time.
Speaker A:And then the last 15 years I also got to put on play clothes and get cool gear.
Speaker A:So we would then also train the regular field agents who don't get as much offerings to do things safer.
Speaker A:So over the years, SWAT went from overcoming the enemy with speed, surprise and violence of action, where breaking the door, get inside, rifle pointed at you while you're still in bed, to a surround and call out method.
Speaker A:That's what the FBI has been doing for a number of years.
Speaker A:That's where what a number of other local teams are also adopting.
Speaker A:And what that does is it raises the standard of safety for operators and also safety for occupants, innocence in the house, and also the bad guys.
Speaker A:So what we do is we have a tactical L, so we're pointing guns, not at each other.
Speaker A:We don't have guys in the front, in the back with, you know, guns that can go through windows.
Speaker A:And we surround and we call out.
Speaker A:So they've got, you know, we've got our lasers pointed at windows.
Speaker A:Guy looks at the outside and a number of men have said this, like, we'll find a gun next to where we first saw them, and they're ready to fight it out until they realize it's the police.
Speaker A:And then they see, here's armored vehicles, here's 20 guys with rifles.
Speaker A:I've got nowhere to go, I'm going to come out.
Speaker A:And so we set that up.
Speaker A:We've also been able to introduce tech.
Speaker A:So we have drones and robots.
Speaker A:So I was a breacher for a number of years on the SWAT team and that could be breaching a door and falling back, Breaching a door, inserting tack holding at the threshold.
Speaker A:And then we see what's in front of us.
Speaker A:It could be porting a window, getting in a drone, having that drone facing out so that, no, I'm not going to take rounds as I come up to the door to breach that.
Speaker A:As a breacher, I was the most important person on the team because if we don't get the door open, we can't get the job done.
Speaker A:And I was the least valuable because here I am standing in front of a door.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:With a ram.
Speaker A:So fortunately, nothing terribly bad ever happened to me.
Speaker A:But we would then set up and then be ready to make entry in waves.
Speaker A:So one thing I would often teach agents is we need to use good math, which is sending the fewest number for the task that can get the job done properly.
Speaker A:So if you're a bad guy and you know, we're out front and you've got a rifle and you're going to oppose us.
Speaker A:Do you want four people at the door or do you want 15 people at the door?
Speaker A:Yeah, you want as many as possible so that you can spray create mayhem and destruction.
Speaker A:So it's, it's a terrible mathematic, but if someone's going to get hurt, we want the fewest possible with the remaining operators available to come and to provide return fire and rescue.
Speaker A:That's a little setup of, of how we deal with a violent subject.
Speaker B:You know, I, I don't have any civilian experience, but I was sitting here thinking and as I was listening and you know, even the training aspect, right.
Speaker B:So I did, I did 10 years in the, the regular army and then I did 10 years in the special operations side and, and the level of training that you get and, and obviously because the budget goes up as well, just it's, it's like night and day, you know, the training that we got during this, my 10 years of special operations compared to what I got to do in the regular army, and a lot of it comes down to money.
Speaker B:But you know, that same concept is, is, has been adapted by the military.
Speaker B:You know, we originally was kicking indoors and just surprise elements and going through houses to knocking on doors and waiting for them to open it up and then playing hide and seek.
Speaker B:Where'd you hide the weapons?
Speaker B:You know, and a lot of that was about trying to gain the, the confidence of the people.
Speaker B:So we weren't, we were giving them time to allow the, the women to get dressed and, and covered up and, and so forth, but it made it a little bit harder on us.
Speaker B:But I do think in the most part it also made it safer on both sides because now we're, we're coming in in a organized method.
Speaker B:It's a conversation versus a surprise and shock.
Speaker B:So I think I do agree with you in that aspect.
Speaker B:And, and you know, the special ops side is all about the smallest amount of people that you need to meet, meet the, the mission.
Speaker B:And that is for safety reasons as, as well, well, and part of the
Speaker A:problem that I would also bring some training to local teams or local police and part of the problem that I would have convincing a surrounding call out or at least a measured surrounding call out where you're not just knocking on the door and rushing in was the initial purpose always worked.
Speaker A:I'm still here, it's successful.
Speaker A:So you have a survivorship fallacy where I'm still here, it's never failed, so let's keep doing it.
Speaker A:And, and then when it does fail, everybody goes, oh man, it's Too bad we lost Charlie.
Speaker A:Maybe we should rethink it.
Speaker A:Well, how about rethinking it before Charlie gets killed, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so it's hard to get that through to somebody who says I've, it's always worked for me, so I'm just going to keep doing it.
Speaker A:And I liken it to, if you're coaching fourth grade basketball, there's a kid dribbles up the court and takes a half court shot and he makes it, you're like, great, don't ever take that shot again.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm glad it went in.
Speaker A:That's not a good shot, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna lose more than, than you, you win at that point.
Speaker A:Even if he makes the second one.
Speaker A:Don't do that anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree 100%.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, a lot of people watch too much tv, right?
Speaker B:And they, they see the SWAT on TV and, and they assume that's the way it is.
Speaker B:But you know, the reality is it's just like you said, it's, it's, it's accomplishing on a mission, going back and doing an after action review of how that mission went down and then if needed, changing tactics and, and so forth to accomplish the mission with the least amount of casualties and damage as well, you know.
Speaker A:Well, one thing that's been great about the FBI SWAT that I've seen over the years is the integration of our crisis negotiators.
Speaker A:So it used to be you're our negotiator.
Speaker A:We've got an op tomorrow morning.
Speaker A:Have your phone nearby in case it breaks down.
Speaker A:And then the negotiators were tail end Charlie, last vehicle just a half block down the road in case something went bad.
Speaker A:And now they are fully involved.
Speaker A:They know our mission, they support our mission.
Speaker A:They're on the loud hailer.
Speaker A:One of them is calling in, notifying law enforcement presence while another is trying phone numbers that the case agent gave them to see if they can call in, get mom or the subject to come on out, lock up the dog, get dressed, get the kids.
Speaker A:How many, who else is in there?
Speaker A:Any gun.
Speaker A:And it's a full integration and they know when it's time to go, they're out.
Speaker A:When it's time for them to stand, step up because there's some type of barricade, we're going to pause.
Speaker A:And now it's their game.
Speaker A:And that's worked very well for us where it's, it's not like Waco, where get the hell out of here.
Speaker A:This is our.
Speaker A:You know, you're trying to.
Speaker A:You're trying to keep me from killing people.
Speaker A:I got bloodlust.
Speaker A:Get out of my way.
Speaker A:Yeah, they work very well with us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, I want to dig now into your book.
Speaker B:So we've talked about the career and everything else, and how did the writing of your book go?
Speaker B:I struggled with my first book.
Speaker B:I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker B:Was not easy.
Speaker B:And even though it was about me, I still struggled.
Speaker A:You're an expert.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:For me, it was.
Speaker A:It was the opposite.
Speaker A:I. I just started telling the stories like I do.
Speaker A:Like we're sitting in a Bearcat, but I like to not.
Speaker A:Not embellish, but I like to tell, you know, the interesting parts, the.
Speaker A:The crazy things.
Speaker A:Like, so here's this long financial investigation I had, but also here's the crazy part where the subject kept telling everybody I was banging his wife, and then after she divorced him, he remarried someone else, and then I was banging her, and then she divorced him and started dating this other guy's sister.
Speaker A:Lo and behold, we were having sex, and I was having sex with so many women, but not getting any of the pleasure of it along the way.
Speaker A:So, you know, I.
Speaker A:We tell a story, but for me, there's also the silly stuff that goes on as well along the way.
Speaker A:So my wife markets books, published books.
Speaker A:She said, you should write something.
Speaker A:And I just sat down and started putting these stories together.
Speaker A:So I would focus on one case, either one I investigated or was a part of, and would write out, hey, here's an inside look into how this.
Speaker A:How we built this, how it went down.
Speaker A:And then to your point, then I follow each chapter with an Aaron, which is, how did I do this?
Speaker A:Well, how did I screw this up?
Speaker A:What made us successful?
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And I try to draw in my experience in the ministry as well.
Speaker A:I had to interrogate this pastor who was prostituting a young girl from his congregation, and I had to get him to confess.
Speaker A:And now I want to look at what allowed me to get into him, to agree to tell me things that he absolutely should not have been telling me.
Speaker A:How did.
Speaker A:How did I get to that point?
Speaker A:How did I start completely screw up, but was able to then get around to something that was successful.
Speaker A:So each has a main story or two, and then maybe a vignette or so that also relates, you know, as I talk about child prostitutes and, well, teenage prostitutes and how we'd rescue them, and then a little follow on to, this is now how we Saw them prosper.
Speaker A:Once they had adults, probably for the first time in their lives, advocate for them.
Speaker A:So parents were gone.
Speaker A:The police only chased them.
Speaker A:Now you had police trying to look out for them.
Speaker A:Now you had victim coordinators who are trying to get them support, and now they're suddenly blooming a bit because they've never had this in their lives.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's 24 years of seeing some crazy things, and it's the type of thing that when I reflect on it, I go, that was pretty cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I think, you know, the other thing too is it sounds like you had a support element with your wife and her expertise with books as well.
Speaker B:So I'm sure the editing process and stuff was a little bit easier and the marketing process, which is what a lot of the self publishing authors really struggle with, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, if anybody's looking, she owns a company weaving influence.
Speaker A:So if you've published a book you want to self publish, that's a great place to start.
Speaker A:So we will be publishing through her company and then she'll get to do what she's been doing for the past 14 years, which is push my book into people's laps.
Speaker B:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, can you, Eric, can you tell everybody where they're going to be able to find your book and when it comes out and all that good stuff?
Speaker A:Donald, they're going to find the book where everybody finds books, and that's on Amazon.
Speaker A:So the working title we have right now is Irreverent, because I was a reverend and I did a lot of irreverent things along the way.
Speaker A:We had started with the title of Preacher to Preacher, which I still kind of like.
Speaker B:I like that too.
Speaker A:But it'll come out in the fall.
Speaker A:Uh, unfortunately, Becky has some more paying clients who are in line ahead of me to, to get their books out there.
Speaker A:Uh, but that'll come out in the fall.
Speaker A:And when that does, I'll be, you know, rebroadcasting this interview so people can come back to it and we'll have links and such along the way.
Speaker A:But if people want to connect, they can connect with me on my Instagram, which is Underscore Eric, Underscore Robinson or my LinkedIn.
Speaker A:And when you look at the LinkedIn, they'll be.
Speaker A:There'll be this face.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, when I released my book, you know, I told everybody, they asked me that same question, where, where can I get it?
Speaker B:I told them it would be in every pharmacy right next to the Melatonin, you know,
Speaker A:well, my.
Speaker A:I don't think mine will.
Speaker A:Will put people to sleep.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:I wrote an entire chapter on how I made men themselves through my career.
Speaker B:So there you go.
Speaker A:It's a little.
Speaker A:It's a little bit.
Speaker A:Mine's gon next to the milk of magnesia.
Speaker A:Yours is by the melatonin.
Speaker A:Mine is next to something for the upset tummies.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, Eric, I. I had a great time.
Speaker B:I. I appreciate you coming on.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people are.
Speaker B:Are going to enjoy this, you know, and.
Speaker B:And if you do go with Preacher to Breacher, you know, I think.
Speaker B:I think you can't lose that title either, so.
Speaker B:So either one is a win for all my listeners out there, especially you military guys that love tactical operations.
Speaker B:Here's your book.
Speaker B:You've heard it straight from Eric, what it's about.
Speaker B:So once it comes out, don't hesitate.
Speaker B:Go out there, purchase it when you're done with it, leave a review, and refer other people.
Speaker B:So that's the best thing you can do to help authors get their.
Speaker B:Their story out again.
Speaker B:Eric, I appreciate you coming on.
Speaker B:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker B:Y' all take care.
Speaker B:Be safe.
Speaker B:And don't let the day kick your ass.
Speaker B:Kick the day's.
